Discussion:
Something other than inform 7 or TADS
(too old to reply)
kerbingamer376
2016-10-03 15:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
John W Kennedy
2016-10-03 15:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.

But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
kerbingamer376
2016-10-03 16:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.
But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
The reason I find inform too difficult is verbose syntax and complicated, english-like grammar. The reason why TADS is so difficult is I can never get the compiler to work.
John W Kennedy
2016-10-03 23:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.
But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
The reason I find inform too difficult is verbose syntax and
complicated, english-like grammar. The reason why TADS is so difficult
is I can never get the compiler to work.
It would help if you would say something specific and definite. Is
English not your native language? Was your mother frightened by a COBOL
manual when she was pregnant with you? Are you running some sort of
exotic or antique operating system that is almost-but-not-quite
supported by TADS? I know nothing of TADS, myself, but know that many
people have used it. What programming languages do you know? What
natural languages do you know?
--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
kerbingamer376
2016-10-04 06:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.
But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
The reason I find inform too difficult is verbose syntax and
complicated, english-like grammar. The reason why TADS is so difficult
is I can never get the compiler to work.
It would help if you would say something specific and definite. Is
English not your native language? Was your mother frightened by a COBOL
manual when she was pregnant with you? Are you running some sort of
exotic or antique operating system that is almost-but-not-quite
supported by TADS? I know nothing of TADS, myself, but know that many
people have used it. What programming languages do you know? What
natural languages do you know?
--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
Programming languages: C,Python,JS,Java,a bunch of others
Natural languages: English (native language)

The reason why the TADS compiler won't work is it complains it can't find "en_us.h"
John W Kennedy
2016-10-04 14:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.
But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
The reason I find inform too difficult is verbose syntax and
complicated, english-like grammar. The reason why TADS is so difficult
is I can never get the compiler to work.
It would help if you would say something specific and definite. Is
English not your native language? Was your mother frightened by a COBOL
manual when she was pregnant with you? Are you running some sort of
exotic or antique operating system that is almost-but-not-quite
supported by TADS? I know nothing of TADS, myself, but know that many
people have used it. What programming languages do you know? What
natural languages do you know?
--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
Programming languages: C,Python,JS,Java,a bunch of others
Natural languages: English (native language)
The reason why the TADS compiler won't work is it complains it can't find "en_us.h"
Do you have the Workbench? That is recommended.

If you are using t3make, you need to specify the -I flag with the
directory that the TADS include files are in.
--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
kerbingamer376
2016-10-05 07:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a
language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't
for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different
option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom
scripting?
Adventure, and a complete clone of the original mainframe Zork, were
written in Fortran. Even modern dialects of COBOL can do it, with
enough effort. Wiser choices might be Java or Swift. If you don't mind
the computational overhead, I suppose you could use JavaScript or Ruby.
But the entire point of Inform and TADS is to make things easier. A lot
easier. If you're finding them too difficult, then the odds
overwhelmingly favor the hypothesis that you're trying to run before
you learn to walk.
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
The reason I find inform too difficult is verbose syntax and
complicated, english-like grammar. The reason why TADS is so difficult
is I can never get the compiler to work.
It would help if you would say something specific and definite. Is
English not your native language? Was your mother frightened by a COBOL
manual when she was pregnant with you? Are you running some sort of
exotic or antique operating system that is almost-but-not-quite
supported by TADS? I know nothing of TADS, myself, but know that many
people have used it. What programming languages do you know? What
natural languages do you know?
--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
Programming languages: C,Python,JS,Java,a bunch of others
Natural languages: English (native language)
The reason why the TADS compiler won't work is it complains it can't find "en_us.h"
Do you have the Workbench? That is recommended.
If you are using t3make, you need to specify the -I flag with the
directory that the TADS include files are in.
--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
I can't use the workbench as I am on arch linux, and I have asked the person who packaged TADS about this, and I'm waiting for a response.
John Menichelli
2016-10-05 00:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
How about Inform 6? It has a more traditional C-like syntax.
kerbingamer376
2016-10-05 07:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Menichelli
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
How about Inform 6? It has a more traditional C-like syntax.
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
Peter Pears
2016-10-05 09:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
Well, it's not a tutorial, but the DM4 is probably your best (and only?) bet:

http://inform-fiction.org/manual/

You may also want to check out Inform School:

http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=a1f3kx4uzq4fdfm8
Adam Thornton
2016-10-05 14:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
http://bfy.tw/82YD

The Designer's Manual is still the gold standard.

http://inform-fiction.org/manual/DM4.pdf

Adam
Richard Bos
2016-10-09 10:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Thornton
Post by kerbingamer376
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
http://bfy.tw/82YD
The Designer's Manual is still the gold standard.
http://inform-fiction.org/manual/DM4.pdf
More than that. I'd recommend at least the design section to users of
other IF languages as well, and with DM4 in hand I'd even recommend
Inform 6 as an early (if not necessarily first) language for someone
learning programming in general. It really is that good, IMO.

Richard
Glenn Hutchings
2016-10-23 15:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John Menichelli
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, ...
How about Inform 6? It has a more traditional C-like syntax.
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
https://inform-beginners-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
David Griffith
2016-10-24 12:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Hutchings
Post by kerbingamer376
Post by John Menichelli
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, ...
How about Inform 6? It has a more traditional C-like syntax.
Where can I find a good tutorial on inform 6?
https://inform-beginners-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
An update to the IBG is underway. See https://github.com/i6/ibg.
--
David Griffith
***@acm.org <--- Put my last name where it belongs
Richard Bos
2016-10-09 10:19:37 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a lan=
guage, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't for my li=
fe figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different option for writ=
ing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
Inform 6 still exists... it's even being maintained.

Richard
namekuseijin
2016-10-13 17:26:35 UTC
Permalink
how about plain html and javascript? or twine?

really, if you go with a general purpose language, all you'll end up with after much hardwork is a subpar parser engine lacking a lot of the sophistication and world model of Inform and Tads. much easier just quit whining and learn them...
FizzyP
2016-10-14 15:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by namekuseijin
how about plain html and javascript? or twine?
really, if you go with a general purpose language, all you'll end up with after much hardwork is a subpar parser engine lacking a lot of the sophistication and world model of Inform and Tads. much easier just quit whining and learn them...
I agree 100%. I'm a software developer and I can assure you starting from scratch is going to be orders of magnitude harder. Inform 7 is not that hard to learn. I'm sure Inform 6 is fine too. Learning a general purpose programming language is going to bring all sorts of things into play that are interesting but not directly. Computer programming in general can have a sort of infuriating side to it until you get some practice.
Douglas Miles
2016-10-14 16:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by kerbingamer376
Hi,
I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find inform 7, as a language, too verbose and hard to work with as a result, and I can't for my life figure out how to get TADS to work. Is there a different option for writing interactive fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
Hi, I made a new interactive fiction engine called PrologMUD.

http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=13717

It is written in a combo of Defeasible HOPL (Higher Order Predicate Logic) as well as SWI-Prolog. The "Defeasible Logic" comes from that fact that some rules of how the world works can defeat other rules.

It uses KIF files (S-Expressions)

https://github.com/ontologyportal/sumo/blob/master/emotion.kif#L84-L202

synonymously with.. (P-expressions)

https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/blob/master/pack/prologmud/prolog/prologmud/mud_builtin.pfc.pl

and Example of the programing:

https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/blob/master/pack/prologmud/prolog/prologmud/vworld/world_2d.pl#L222-L244


World:

https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/blob/master/pack/prologmud/games/src_game_nani/objs_misc_household.pfc.pl

https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/blob/master/pack/prologmud/games/src_game_startrek/startrek.all.pfc.pl


Video:

rpresser
2016-10-23 20:21:51 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 12:21:49 PM UTC-4, Douglas Miles
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 8:20:37 AM UTC-7, kerbingamer376
Hi, I'm trying to write some interactive fiction, but I find
inform 7, as a language, too verbose and hard to work with as a
result, and I can't for my life figure out how to get TADS to
work. Is there a different option for writing interactive
fiction, that allows for complex custom scripting?
Hi, I made a new interactive fiction engine called PrologMUD.
http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=13717
It is written in a combo of Defeasible HOPL (Higher Order
Predicate Logic) as well as SWI-Prolog. The "Defeasible Logic"
comes from that fact that some rules of how the world works can
defeat other rules.
It seems like it could be an interesting system but it needs a lot
of handholding. If one isn't already a Prolog expert, why would one
choose this system?
Richard Bos
2016-10-30 12:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by rpresser
On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 12:21:49 PM UTC-4, Douglas Miles
Post by Douglas Miles
Hi, I made a new interactive fiction engine called PrologMUD.
http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=13717
It is written in a combo of Defeasible HOPL (Higher Order
Predicate Logic) as well as SWI-Prolog. The "Defeasible Logic"
comes from that fact that some rules of how the world works can
defeat other rules.
It seems like it could be an interesting system but it needs a lot
of handholding. If one isn't already a Prolog expert, why would one
choose this system?
I haven't looked at this system in particular, but I've played with
Prolog, and it did strike me as well that its predicate logic would be
an interesting one to use for, in particular, the input pattern matching
needed to parse IF commands. I never took it any further, though, so I
can't say whether I was right, let alone whether Douglas is.

Richard
Adam Thornton
2016-11-02 00:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Bos
Post by rpresser
On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 12:21:49 PM UTC-4, Douglas Miles
Post by Douglas Miles
Hi, I made a new interactive fiction engine called PrologMUD.
I haven't looked at this system in particular, but I've played with
Prolog, and it did strike me as well that its predicate logic would be
an interesting one to use for, in particular, the input pattern matching
needed to parse IF commands. I never took it any further, though, so I
can't say whether I was right, let alone whether Douglas is.
Waaaaay back in the mid-nineties, Phil Goetz did some IF stuff in
Prolog.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.int-fiction/sHeNwmq05mM

I think I recall a game for the Apple II (so likely from the 80s?) that
he did that used Prolog.

Adam

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